I have copied this and deleted some text. MoSO is a closed group and you need to join the CQI one first but I think they are both open enough, you won't need a subscription to the CQI. If there is a problem please comment. Search "MoSO CQI" should find .

I am trying out connections on LinkedIn this week. There is one copy below from #mtw3 so there is some basis.

-------------------------------------

Teaching as a Design Science

I think the recent book by Diana Laurillard opens up a space for quality ideas to connect with learning, as theory and as organisations. she has commented on my blog post so I think I am not way out of scope so far. There is theory behind quality even if American Pragmatism is not often studied in the UK. But if an organisation is lacking in known ploicy, then something like design science comes in.

Tony Brown • Will there is teaching old knowledge and new knowledge and organisations need to adapt new knowledge to move on. This knowledge must have practical application on new products and service to add value to the organisation.

Will Pollard • Tony, I have added a bit to a cloud in cloudworks, a site by the Open University.

http://cloudworks.ac.uk/cloud/view/6043

this started as an online version of a conference and so far the most interesting ideas are teaching as design science and also scientific leadership. Not sure what this is though. I'm hoping more will turn up in Cloudworks. Leadership as Design Science? I can sort of see how it would fit together but can't find any academic references. Not that this should stop us thinking of course.

Will Pollard • post.ly/8Wfj2

found diagram in Facebook group on virtual worlds, this may fit

Follow Antony

Antony Upward • Perhaps I am mis-understanding - but I believe there is a huge amount of work on management, leadership and teaching from the design science perspective - works by Herbert Simon, Russel Ackoff and Roger Martin (The Design of Business) come strongly to mind - is this the type of thing you were thinking of (if so I can provide more links / ideas)?

Will Pollard • Antony, please say some more. I can well believe there is work already existing that is not widely known or maybe described differently in another context. Tony Brown above works on quality systems and I think this relates to design and possibly scientific leadership. But I don't find much putting design in some sort of quality loop or descriptions of system review as a process.

Follow Antony

Antony Upward • Sorry for the slow reply. Been heads down writing my thesis on Strongly Sustainable Business Models (which is how I found you guys / MoSO). For more please see http://www.EdwardJames.biz/Research (summary) and http://slab.ocad.ca/SSBMs_Defining_the_Field.

(Aside: if this thinking of interest to CQI/MoSO we should talk further. Send me an email; BTW my philiosphical stance in this research is "critical pragamatism", and while I'm in Toronto I hail from the UK!)

OK to your question: design, quality and systems. Wow where to start.

Herbert Simon (1969, p.139) said: "Everyone designs who devises course of action aimed at changing existing situations into preferred ones." Clearly anyone undertaking a TQM program is looking to improve situations. Hence by this definition any TQM program involves designing (at various levels).

Simon, H. A. (1996, first published 1969). The sciences of the artificial (3rd ed.). Cambridge, Massachusetts, United States of America: MIT Press.

Ackoff's work on Ideal-seeking Purposeful systems (i.e. in Deming's terms, the system management is reponsible for) talks about how redesigning such systems is they way to improve them (For an up to date Ackoffian perspective on this try: Gharajedaghi, J. (2011). Systems thinking: managing chaos and complexity : a platform for designing business architecture (3rd ed.). Burlington, Massachusetts, United States of America.: Morgan Kaufmann.

See these works of Ackoff's for a good introduction to his original thinking:

* R. L. (2004). Opening Speech: Transforming the Systems Movement. Third International Conference on Systems Thinking in Management (ICSTM '04), University of Pennsylvania, United States of America.

* R. L. (1974). The systems revolution. Long Range Planning, 7(6), 2-20. doi:10.1016/0024-6301(74)90127-7

* R. L. (1971). Towards a System of Systems Concepts. Management Science, 17(11, Theory Series), 661-671.

Many of these works are described by Ackoff: http://www.organizationaldynamics.upenn.edu/ackoffvideos

Another place to start is a video of a meeting between Russell Ackoff and Edwards Deming - while it takes them a while to align on terminology they are saying the same thing - Ackoff from a systems and design perspective and Deming from a quality and systems perspective. A Transcript is available: http://ackoffcenter.blogs.com/files/dr.-ackoff-dr.-deming.pdf of the conversation which took place in 1992 and was edited and released as Volume 21 of The Deming Library series in 1993. It is called "A Theory of a System for Educators and Managers" It is available from CC-M Productions and includes a second DVD with discussion/teaching guides for it and the rest of the Deming Library at The CC-M website at http://www.managementwisdom.com . (But I'm sure I watched this online somewhere - but right now can't lay my hands on the URL),

Of course more recently there is the great work by Vangard Consulting CEO John Seddon. In this video he talks about his work with Deming (and others) to adapt TQM to Service Organizations (with an explicit consideration of systems and design concepts). Wonderful stuff... also he has lots to say about IT too .. (He takes a bit of time to get the service systems examples).

And this one on "Its the System Stupid"

(Also let's not forget the groundbreaking work in the 1950s of the UK Tavistock Institute's Emery and Trist -both worked with Ackoff later; Emery & Trist came up with design principles for organization design for high quality, efficient AND enjoyable jobs!)

Also as a practitioner example I came across this week proactively integrating design, systems and quality thinking check out this newsletter: http://goo.gl/qqRtp

OK...time for feedback... is this useful... or am I drifting off your original question and telling you stuff you already know?

Will Pollard • Feedback, this is extremely useful. Thanks. I have found the Deming / Ackoff conversation on YouTube starts with a diagram very similar to MoSO. I will look at the rest of your links. I am working on another online occasion for Management Theory at Work "#mtw3" at the end of this month. So will copy much of this to fit better there.

Will Pollard •

I copied some of the post from Antony Upward to the #mtw3 group ( this is a sort of online conference. Here is a copy of a comment by John Burgoyne-

• well I looked at the video on You Tube. It seems to be saying all the right things, but in a very dull and expert and 'we know best' kind of way, the medium seems to contradict the message! And I don't think they allow enough space for the 'emergent properties' of the systems they are trying to improve and control - that is the unexpected and the excercise of free will

This seems a fair comment. Responses please.

Antony

Also as a practitioner example I came across this week proactively integrating design, systems and quality thinking check out this newsletter: (expired link then updated)... this is the October newsletter from the same group: http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=887ndndab&v=0012ndadPBmR-I2efZdhviK2LpdUSbPQ96dmVa1me47SZ_Swzw7ZnMzHztQnTpUw3kEEYNCQFWbZ4EDdVKKjOHgC2Kb2pLxb67fUjxyBt3LNZVeNeitqhtISA%3D%3D

Antony Upward • #mtw3 group - John Burgoyne- - "• well I looked at the video on You Tube. It seems to be saying all the right things, but in a very dull and expert and 'we know best' kind of way, the medium seems to contradict the message! And I don't think they allow enough space for the 'emergent properties' of the systems they are trying to improve and control - that is the unexpected and the excercise of free will "

Sounds about right; the video was i think in the early '90's if memory serves... so they were both in well into their "guru-hood" by that point! For better delivery specific to high quality service systems design the links to Vangard's CEO John Seddon has more pizazz and a more recent perspective...

But yes... more could be done to make the messages clear and more fun!